Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler - WOW!!!! I THINK WE GOT A WHOLE NEW AIRLINE TO FLY(MABY)!!!!

Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler | Airline Operations | WOW!!!! I THINK WE GOT A WHOLE NEW AIRLINE TO FLY(MABY)!!!!

DVA1194
Senior Captain, MD-88
E-MAIL

Joined on April 18 2003
Century Club

Southeastern United States

112 legs, 349.3 hours
42 legs, 66.7 hours online
1 legs, 1.3 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 04 2004 19:26 ET by Matthew Sisson

If Luke and stafff approve of this....Air France(our #1 and "special" code share airline) now has COMPLETE controll over KLM after a merger making them the largest airline in the world....

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040504/france_air_france_klm_27.html

So Luke and/or management...are we alowed to fly KLM now since it's owned by Air France?

DVA1190
Senior Captain, B777-200
OLP

Joined on April 21 2003
Everett 250 Club
Online Quadruple Century Club
Quincentenary Club
50 State Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary

"Never try, never fail"
Greenville, SC

524 legs, 1,777.8 hours
490 legs, 1,650.8 hours online
144 legs, 373.3 hours ACARS
35 legs, 89.2 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 04 2004 20:07 ET by David Schaum

Tom Haug, correct me if I'm wrong, but ownership of KLM by Air France does not provide access for Delta pilots to the KLM flight schedule. KLM will remain a separate entity, and to fly their flights would be a code share of a code share??? if that makes sense. Anyway, not possible.

Now, if your a member of Northwest Virtual, then you can fly KLM. I would also guess that if you leave DVA and become a member of AFVA.NET, then you will also have access.

Just my little guess at the situation.

David Schaum

Senior Captain, B777-200

DVA1427
Senior Captain, MD-11
OLP

Joined on December 14 2003
Online Double Century Club
50 State Club
Tri-Jet Triumph
Globetrotter
Moose Club
US Capital Club
Everett 250 Club
Quincentenary Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary

"Livin' in the Dog Pound!"
Kannapolis, NC

558 legs, 1,984.3 hours
250 legs, 611.8 hours online
384 legs, 1,530.5 hours ACARS
38 legs, 82.7 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 04 2004 21:02 ET by Lewis Gregory

I wouldn't think we'd get to fly KLM unless KLM joined SkyTeam, right?

Lewis Gregory

Senior Captain, MD-11

DVA1296
First Officer, B737-800

Joined on July 05 2003

Southeastern United States

14 legs, 21.9 hours
14 legs, 21.9 hours online

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 02:32 ET by Chanse Watson

That's good news, yet Delta is still not looking so good. My mom is a flight attendent for DAL and they are accepting a paycut, unfortunately DAL doesn't have a union anymore. I'll be suprised if Delta hangs around til the end of this year.

Chanse Watson (DVA1296)

DVA1194
Senior Captain, MD-88
E-MAIL

Joined on April 18 2003
Century Club

Southeastern United States

112 legs, 349.3 hours
42 legs, 66.7 hours online
1 legs, 1.3 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 05:00 ET by Matthew Sisson

well, they are bringing back some 1000 pilots

DVA1140
First Officer, B757-200

Joined on March 16 2003
Double Century Club

Western Europe

254 legs, 1,137.4 hours
10 legs, 24.5 hours online
324 legs, 1,393.2 hours total

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 05:42 ET by Daniel Counahan

Lewis "KLM is set to join Skyteam later this year" they are joining skyteam.
Cheers
Dan C

Daniel Counahan (DVA1140)

DVA919
First Officer, B767-300

Joined on November 03 2002
Century Club
Online Century Club

"It's a bhoys thing!"
Western Europe

185 legs, 485.7 hours
101 legs, 306.1 hours online
4 legs, 13.6 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 07:06 ET by Mark Lee

"Well, they are bringing back some 1000 pilot"

They have to do this. They have no choice. As part of their restructuring agreement, once they reached a certain profit margin, they are compelled to re-hire furloughed pilots. So, that could cripple them even more.

Mark Lee (DVA919)

DVA1561
Captain, A320

Joined on March 06 2004
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary

East Northport, NY

81 legs, 244.6 hours
31 legs, 116.4 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 07:21 ET by Stuart Guberman

The report also states that the operating legs of both companies will remain distinctly seperate. It's only the holding company that will bear the merged name.

It is indeed good news though that KLM will join SkyTeam. So, yes, we will be flying some KLM flights and planes later this year.

Stuart Guberman

Captain, A320

DVA1651
Senior Captain, MD-11

Joined on April 25 2004
Everett 250 Club
50 State Club
Globetrotter
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Million Mile Club
Eight Century Club
Online Quadruple Century Club
White Pearl Accomplishment

"DAL1651 heavy is type MD-11, ready for blastoff"
Nashville, TN

879 legs, 3,275.4 hours
436 legs, 1,621.5 hours online
626 legs, 2,413.4 hours ACARS
28 legs, 89.5 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 07:42 ET by James Marshall

If Delta goes bankrupt or whatever does that mean the this virtual airline will shut down with it?

James Marshall

Senior Captain, MD-11

DVA1008
Senior Captain, B757-200

Joined on December 14 2002
B757 100 Club
Everett 250 Club
50 State Club
Six Century Club
Online Six Century Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary

"Fly 'till the map turns blue"
Kokomo, IN

633 legs, 1,731.3 hours
613 legs, 1,689.9 hours online
212 legs, 792.3 hours ACARS
35 legs, 77.7 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 08:07 ET by Matt Young

Are you serious? NONE of us would just say well Delta went bankrupt see ya over at American or United. We've all worked hard to get to where we are now and the real Delta going bankrupt would NEVER split up this group. The thing that makes us different is everybody plays an important part in maintaining our good name and just throwing it away would go against everything we stand for.

Matt Young

Senior Captain, B757-200

DVA544
Senior Captain, B727-200

Joined on October 24 2001
Online Century Club
Triple Century Club

Southeastern United States

329 legs, 661.4 hours
186 legs, 368.2 hours online
47 legs, 90.0 hours ACARS
7 legs, 22.1 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 08:34 ET by Joe DeGregorio

One thing you people gotta remember....If Delta files Ch.11 Bankruptcy..it WILL NOT be the end of Delta Airlines.
Delta will re-organize under Ch.11 Bankruptcy and I think you will see a lot of changes,but Delta will not go away.
Even if they did file Ch.7 and went under for good..this website and VA would keep that Legend Alive.As Delta has became a Legend, and its Legacy will never be forgotten.
Keep your heads up and keep the faith people.....Delta has financial issues,but rest assured..they will come out of it O.K....Ya gotta just believe.
Joe

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 09:26 ET by Lewis Gregory

I figure it this way...there's an Eastern Virtual Airlines out there that seems to be doing OK, and Eastern's been six feet under for, what, ten or fifteen years now? If that's the case, you KNOW DVA isn't going anywhere. Not with this fantastic crew of pilots and management.

Delta's in trouble but I seriously doubt they'd just go Chapter Seven and disappear. The disruption would be incredible if they did. Heck, isn't there one airline (maybe Continental?) that's gone through Chapter Eleven twice in the past 20 years and kept operating the whole time?

Lewis Gregory

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 10:37 ET by Joe DeGregorio

COA went Ch.11 2x i believe...My dad was with them back then...I maybe wrong,it may have been 3x....that was when Frank Lorenzo was running the Company..then I thin Mr.Ferguson took over and they went into Ch.11 again to clean up Lorenzo's mess.

DVA1650
Captain, L-1011-100

Joined on April 24 2004
Century Club

"The O-N-L-Y Way to Fly!"
Southeastern United States

103 legs, 174.7 hours
49 legs, 94.5 hours online
2 legs, 2.1 hours ACARS
2 legs, 3.2 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 12:38 ET by Daniel Malneritch

According to a Delta NewsDigest a month or two ago, Air France is buying out KLM. They will be operated as different airlines under a board mostly of Air France people. I think KLM is joining SkyTeam at the end of the year.

Daniel Malneritch

Captain, L-1011-100

DVA1296
First Officer, B737-800

Joined on July 05 2003

Southeastern United States

14 legs, 21.9 hours
14 legs, 21.9 hours online

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 14:37 ET by Chanse Watson

Well,

A lot of you are right, however the real news I hear are from the employees and from my mom. To me, it was a waste to start up Song. Delta's flight attendents have to accept a pay cut, for the 2nd time or so (can't remember). In order to save the company in a little way, is for the pilots to accept a cut as well. If Delta had a Union, then I'm sure the pilots would. But they are too damn selfish. My mom has 30 years with Delta (very high seniority) and is receiving a paycut and she hasn't received a payraise in a LONG time.

If you're a pilot for Delta, I'm sorry, but I'm not happy with them, nor the past management. The old President pretty much took the money himself, in a way "stole" it from Delta. My mom, currently, is suffering from anxiety attacks from seeing what Delta is doing to her and all the other flight attendents?

1000 pilots? More money to pay them? Less money for the flight attendents? Don't think so. You want to know how bad it is? My mom was going to work (she's an international flight attendent). She flies out of New Orleans to Atlanta since the New Orleans DAL's base is closed. While landing in Atlanta, she started to undergo heavy breathing. When looking at the window, she started sweating and thought they were going to crash, but the plane was just on a nice final. She saw an airport below and thought it was Atlanta, but it was a small regional airport that was on or near the final approach course.

When riding the train once she arrived in Atlanta, she got off and started to panic, she was lost. Now, I know it's a little personal but I'm ticked off. I'm worried about her. She's been undergoing anxiety attacks. Not good.

If the pilots can't accept a paycut, then I wont be suprised to see Delta file Chapter 11. Maybe if the pilots loved what they do and cared for the others and not be so selfish, then there would be a less chance of this dilemma to occur.

It's sad now because they are taking seats out of aircraft, leaving people at the terminal with empty seats. Secondly, they are selling seats for about $25. Sad, I think so.

Chanse Watson (DVA1296)

DVA1129
Senior Captain, B757-200
E-MAIL

Joined on March 10 2003
Million Mile Club
Millennium Club
Online Six Century Club

""never ever give up""
Ardmore, OK USA

1,210 legs, 3,192.7 hours
602 legs, 1,222.0 hours online
508 legs, 1,054.6 hours ACARS
15 legs, 27.7 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 14:47 ET by Craig Davidson

theres no way Delta is going under for good, if anything they will file CH11 wich isn't that bad, US Air, United and i think NWA are a few who have just emerged from CH11 and they are doing better then ever.

Craig Davidson (DVA1129)

DVA953
Senior Captain, B737-800
E-MAIL

Joined on November 17 2002
50 State Club
Double Century Club
Online Double Century Club

"V1 means V1..."
West Lafayette, IN USA

214 legs, 376.8 hours
211 legs, 373.0 hours online
117 legs, 223.6 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 14:53 ET by James Brickell

Chanse,

First of all I am very sorry for what your mother is going through. I'm definitely not in her shoes, nor do I want to be, but your post is a little out of line.

It's very unfortunate that the Flight Attendants are taking a pay cut. They're underpaid anyway, dealing with the general public all day long, being away from family. There are a lot of downsides. However I do take issue with your "pilots are selfish" issue. This is harsh and offensive to the airline pilots and regular pilots here, so I'd watch what you say. Pilots for the most part are caring individuals. We had career day (no cracks, please) at our school today, and I spoke with a Continental 737 pilot. He told us to always respect our flight attendants, calling them his "lifeline". They let you know what goes on on the other side of the cockpit door, and god forbid you're ever in an emergency, he said they would be the ones hauling your ass out of a burning plane.

I'm sure the pilots' union is reluctant to accept because they are already making a lot less than they used to, and the cost of living all over the US is a lot higher than it used to be. To say that pilots as a whole are selfish, greedy, and don't care about their co-workers is blunt, harsh, and basically incorrect. They're acting in their best interests. Also, I'm sure that the pilots' union would not be the first to turn down a pay cut.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, it's not intended as such. However, I must disagree with your post. Should you wish to discuss anything further, give me a buzz.

James Brickell (DVA953)

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 16:10 ET by Joe DeGregorio

Forget the Pilots and Flight Attendants...I think Upper Management should look at paycuts also.....or as a whole...everyone take paycuts...I dont Like DAL's CEO nor the CFO,they have ruined a good airline.
I would rather see Frank Lorenzo running Delta right now....no..wait..thats even worse....but you get the point.
High priced executives who have no airline experience are running an airline into the dirt.
But,only time will tell...but yes.there are a lot of pilots who are junior who dont want paycuts..they dont make that much already..that is their argument and a good one at that...i think it should be limited to the highly paid senior pilots.....but...Im not on DAL's board of directors.so my opinon means nothing....but it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years.
I think DAL will come out OK...but I think thats only going to happen when upper management is purged of the poor decision makers,and greedy types.

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 16:55 ET by James Brickell

LOL..Frank Lorenzo running DVA, now that would be scary.

James Brickell (DVA953)

DVA1435
Captain, MD-88
E-MAIL

Joined on December 16 2003
Century Club

Midwestern United States

142 legs, 198.6 hours
1 legs, 1.2 hours online
15 legs, 25.6 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:06 ET by Travis Gearhart

i don't want to see the alliance betweent KLM and Northwest go away...I'm so mad at AirFrance for taking over KLM....if you think Delta is selfish...sorry no way. Bring KLM here, but take out AirFrance.

Travis Gearhart (DVA1435)

DVA869
Captain, B737-800

Joined on September 30 2002
Century Club

Western United States

150 legs, 260.5 hours

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:22 ET by Mike Lewis

I don't think there is any danger of the NWA-KLM alliance going away. I don't know the exact details but I do know that one owns a major stake in the other. I know that when you call their reservation line it is answered "Thank you for calling Northwest-KLM reservatons."

DVA1296
First Officer, B737-800

Joined on July 05 2003

Southeastern United States

14 legs, 21.9 hours
14 legs, 21.9 hours online

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:25 ET by Chanse Watson

I know it seemed harsh, but it's my perception. I know not all pilots are like that, but think about it. If you worked for a multi million dollar industry (probably mutli billion heh) and your company is close to filing chapter 11, don't you think you would care and take a pay cut as well to help the financing of the business. I see that as selfish. The paycut isn't going to help anyone, but atleast to back it down a little bit until we're out of the hole.

Joe is right. It's mainly the management's fault. Many jobs are at stake, and an excellent industry has gone to kaos it seems. Delta to me, has been an ideal life to work for when I get older. I have always though that. I've been flying Delta since I was a toddler, and have always been fascinated of the people and just planes in general. There's no one better airline, except a few that I know that are just as awesome, that I would work for anyday. To see this company face a debt and beginning to dig itself a deeper holes, started by the management. Well, it's distasteful.

I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings here. However, this is the effecting the way I live. We are living from paycheck to paycheck, I'll be working a lot this summer to help support my parents, myself a long with my flying. James is right and I apologize for what I said earlier, but maybe I should've clarified my reasoning.

Chanse Watson (DVA1296)

DVA275
Senior Captain, B777-200

Joined on September 09 2001
Century Club

Northeastern United States

185 legs, 487.2 hours
68 legs, 205.0 hours online

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:25 ET by Robert Sucarato

I was reading through these posts and couldn't help but interject some information.

First of all... Chanse, I feel for what your mom is going through right now. But unfortunately the airline industry is struggling across the board and these cuts are needed to help the individual airlines survive in the current market. The security issues after September 11 have really put the industry (which was struggling before 9/11) in a tough spot. Yes, there are some profitable airlines out there -- JetBlue and Southwest -- but Delta is not alone in its lack of profitability.

There is a good chance the company will file for bankruptcy later this year, but that does not mean the airline will be going out of business. That will just help the company restructure some of its debt and get the company streamlined for future growth. When that growth may come in entirely up to the consumers.

Pay cuts are never easy on working families and we can all sympathize with those in the airline industry. It has been one of the hardest hit (if not THE hardest hit) industries, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. The economy is picking up steam and that should carry over into air travel over the next 12 months. In addition, the airlines have been streamlining their operations over the past few years and should be well-positioned for the recovery.

In lieu of the pay cuts, however, the other option would be for the individual airlines to cut more staff. And so while pay cuts are not easy, there really isn't an option right now (for Delta or any of the other major airlines).

The lack of a union is not the issue here. Even if the union wanted its members to receive a raise or at least keep salaries at their current levels, the individual airlines just can't do it right now. If the airlines were forced by the unions to increase pay levels or sustain current pay levels, the airlines would just start cutting jobs and that is worse for the employees than the pay cuts the airlines are asking for at this point.

Unfortunately for pilots and flight attendants, their bargaining power has been taken away by the current market conditions. A pilot or flight attendant that gets laid off has little or no chance of finding work at another major airline because they are all in financial distress. Yes, some are in worse shape than others, but the fact remains that none of them are actively hiring.

Do I feel Delta's current management team has done a bad job? Well that depends on how we define "bad job." While they certainly could have restructured and streamlined the operation a while back, there is only so much they can do while still trying to operate a functional airline.

If you look at the revenue decreases for the major airlines over the past few years, you will see that it's not management's fault that the market has declined so precipitously. There were many factors for the drop, most notably September 11 and the stagnant economy.

The economy is on its way back and then it will come down to the security concerns. I fly often for business purposes and really have not changed my habits following the attacks on September 11. But there are a number of people that have completely abandoned air travel due to the attacks and will not come back until they are sure air travel is secure.

So those are the issues I wanted to mention. Sorry I went on for so long, but this is my area of expertise.

DVA1296
First Officer, B737-800

Joined on July 05 2003

Southeastern United States

14 legs, 21.9 hours
14 legs, 21.9 hours online

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:32 ET by Chanse Watson

Robert,

If the people truely care for who they work for and what it stands for, then there is no doubt that if they file chapter 11, they will solve the problems or try to. The management isn't quite suffering as much as the employees.

However, didn't this happen with UAL or something? My mom's friend used to be a pilot for United and got layed off. After a time away, he received a phone call from UAL to come back. Didn't they file Chapter 11 and got out of it, or?

Chanse Watson (DVA1296)

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:40 ET by David Schaum

Not to drag this on for too much longer, but I must interject, that while the airlines are getting all the press, the travel industry as a whole has suffered more than any industry in the United States from September 11th.

The city of Charlotte is ranked by the Wall Street Journal as one of the top three worst hit cities in the United States for the hotel industry. The city, which once had an annual occupancy rate of over 65 percent, is now struggling to maintain 35 to 40 percent occupancy. I have witnessed the total elimination of the most successful hotelier in Charlotte, and watch now as several more head down that same road now. More hotels in this city now belong to banks than ever before.

How do I know so much, I was laid off four weeks ago as my current company is one of the many heading towards bankruptcy, and will most likely end up as the one fore mentioned above, dissolved.

I've been in the hotel industry for 14 years, and since 9/11, I've been laid off twice. Boy do I wish I was offered a pay cut.

So, there is no time for emotional distress, we need to pick ourselves up and find a way to survive. Delta will, and so will I. (as soon as I can find a job, hehehe) Anyone know a good bankruptcy lawyer in NC?

Anyway, it?s unusual, and probably not wise to discuss personal matters regarding the condition of our family members and our plots in life here in the Water Cooler. Discussing the state of the economy is fine in my opinion.

Let?s Fly.

P.s. Any one want the resume` of a great Vice President of Operations? I?m willing to start at the bottom. Relocation not a problem. lol

David Schaum

Senior Captain, B777-200

DVA803
Senior Captain, CRJ-200
E-MAIL

Joined on August 22 2002
Online Century Club
Double Century Club

Midwestern United States

210 legs, 339.3 hours
199 legs, 324.4 hours online
2 legs, 4.9 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:47 ET by Matt Moak

"Anyone know a good bankruptcy lawyer in NC?" LOL Can't say that I do but I'll keep my eyes and ears open.

Matt

Matt Moak (DVA803)

DVA1296
First Officer, B737-800

Joined on July 05 2003

Southeastern United States

14 legs, 21.9 hours
14 legs, 21.9 hours online

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 17:52 ET by Chanse Watson

Yeah, I guess I went to far in my personal life LOL. Wish I could edit it.

Chanse Watson (DVA1296)

DVA1435
Captain, MD-88
E-MAIL

Joined on December 16 2003
Century Club

Midwestern United States

142 legs, 198.6 hours
1 legs, 1.2 hours online
15 legs, 25.6 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 18:03 ET by Travis Gearhart

But look at all of the news about airlines, nothing is postive. All they talk about is how airlines are suffering...very disadvantagous to the airline industry...I haven't seen anything positve to an airline at all, not even LCC's. Nobody will earn money without being optimistic...the news is degrading about and all media for that fact. It's just depressing to see this happen.

Travis Gearhart (DVA1435)

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 18:09 ET by Joe DeGregorio

Well david...you can always follow your Hornets down here...LOL

DVA361
Captain, B777-200

Joined on November 06 2001
Online Century Club
Million Mile Club
Quincentenary Club

Southeastern United States

537 legs, 3,208.2 hours
131 legs, 661.6 hours online
58 legs, 272.3 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 05 2004 20:03 ET by Andy Jones

Chance touched on a good point. Delta has to recall something like 1,400+ pilots due to the collective agreement reached by ALPA. If they don't they're facing a lawsuit. Also consider poor Grinstein. He's lost 4 key upper management people to competitors since taking over. Tack on top of that the money to repaint the fleet (thanks alot Ron Allen) and you've got a big mess going on in Atlanta. Don't get me wrong, I am a widget fan, but there are some very, very messy situations which need to be resolved before DAL can rebound. I know they can do it, it's just a matter of how long it will take.

Andy Jones

Captain, B777-200

DVA1296
First Officer, B737-800

Joined on July 05 2003

Southeastern United States

14 legs, 21.9 hours
14 legs, 21.9 hours online

Posted onPost created on May 06 2004 01:36 ET by Chanse Watson

LOL Joe. It would be nice if they would've won. Oh well. New Orleans isn't city that should have sports. Too much other stuff to focus on. As long as the Saints players don't move to basketball, I'll be fine.

Chanse Watson (DVA1296)

Posted onPost created on May 06 2004 06:29 ET by Joe DeGregorio

uumm...on the subject of the Saints.....we dont wanna go there.
all I know is that if that umm..person that owns them,doesnt keep his mouth shut and let jim hasslet do his job,the siants can pack up and move for all I care.....mr.beson can then focus on his car dealerships and quit trying to demand and threaten the state to give the saints money,or they're leaving...bahhh....I cant believe the state let him get away with that.
I Love the Saints..but when the team owner demands and threatens taking the team to another city unless the state gives him so many millions of dollars...no way....he can take his team and his car dealerships and dont let the door hit him in the rear on the way out.
'nuff said.

DVA1561
Captain, A320

Joined on March 06 2004
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary

East Northport, NY

81 legs, 244.6 hours
31 legs, 116.4 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 06 2004 10:47 ET by Stuart Guberman

David -- Contact me via email. I just filed last Friday for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy (and I did ALL of my own paperwork, too.)

Stuart Guberman

Captain, A320

DVA1561
Captain, A320

Joined on March 06 2004
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary

East Northport, NY

81 legs, 244.6 hours
31 legs, 116.4 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 06 2004 10:58 ET by Stuart Guberman

Also, for those who are not exactly aware of Title 11 of the United States Code, a.k.a. The Federal Bankruptcy Code, Chapter 11 is an reorganization/restructuring of a companies debts, however, Ch. 11 will continue to allow the business to operate with heavy restrictions. Chapter 7 (for which like I said, I just filed for and have my Section 341 meeting scheduled for 4 June) is liquidation of ALL assets to pay off all recorded debts and claims. Companies which undergo Chapter 7 are, in essence, going BYE-BYE. IIRC, Pan Am underwent Chapter 7 in the end of their non-charter history. Yes, they ARE still in operation, believe it or not, but really as a charter airline.

I remember yet another carrier that underwent Chapter 11 twice and is yet again out of it -- America West.

Stuart Guberman

Captain, A320

Posted onPost created on May 06 2004 12:41 ET by Daniel Malneritch

*cough* PanAm still exixts??!! That was probably another bad move with Delta. We got some of their assets, and had to pay their debt! (The Shuttle is pretty cool though.)

Leo Mullin did screw up. Now all the execs are taking their money and running! I thing Jerry Grinstein will be a lot better though. (After all he came from WESTERN.)

Now one of the major problems is FUEL PRICES. They are killing the airlines.

And then of course there's ALPA.

What a mess!

Airplanes are MUCH safer than any other form of transportation.

Daniel Malneritch

Captain, L-1011-100

Posted onPost created on May 06 2004 15:08 ET by Andy Jones

Looks like in excess of 30.00 tax per roundtrip ticket due to the rising fuel prices and the like. Also look for a surge during the winter months of December and January too as airlines look to cover the inflated costs of fuel.

Andy Jones

Captain, B777-200

Posted onPost created on May 07 2004 11:10 ET by Daniel Malneritch

Maybe we'll see a rebirth of the profan engine!

Daniel Malneritch

Captain, L-1011-100

DVA071
Senior Captain, B757-200

Joined on July 03 2001
Triple Century Club
Online Triple Century Club

Weston, MA USA

375 legs, 1,827.1 hours
310 legs, 1,535.6 hours online
159 legs, 991.1 hours ACARS
2 legs, 14.5 hours event

Posted onPost created on May 10 2004 18:18 ET by Geoffrey Smith

airplanes are much safer than any other form of transportation - I'd have to disagree. European long distance trains have got that safety record beat, and are much more convient / comfortable. But within the US, I'd say you're right. Amtrak's a joke!

DVA1628
Captain, B767-300

Joined on April 09 2004
Online Double Century Club
Triple Century Club

"The DL757 at BNA is once again gone"
Gallatin, TN USA

307 legs, 575.5 hours
297 legs, 559.5 hours online
234 legs, 441.8 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on May 21 2004 13:05 ET by Glen Novitsky

Not to add fuel to the fire, but all this discussion on pay rates and bankruptcy made me remember this site I found while looking at pictures on Airliners.net (great site if you like looking at comercial airliners)

http://www.apapdp.org/pay.comparison.php

Delta pays CONSIDERABLY higher than the others... however, if you look, Southwest if VERY competitive and makes money. I found this web page one of the most interesting out there! Glen

Glen Novitsky

Captain, B767-300

DVA1419
Senior Captain, B737-800

Joined on December 07 2003
Century Club

Southeastern United States

175 legs, 303.7 hours

Posted onPost created on May 21 2004 17:30 ET by Randy King

Interesting no one has mentioned the current cost of gas/fuel. Certainly this has to be hitting the airline industry hard, on top of other building company woes. I am seeing a possible trend with the up-start of small, independant airlines. Here at CAE, we just gained a small up-start airline (based out of D.C.?), an off-shoot of a larger carrier. The large carrier, facing re-structuring apparently gave this shuttle group (primarily CRJs) an alternative, one of which was to accept severe cuts. This small company thought about it and said bye bye. Airfares are low (for now) with a descent variety of destinations. I can see where a company like this would capture its share of the business comuters.

As for "corporate America" and greed, no one above mentioned the share-holders and expectations. Sadly, it would seem the old theory of "trickle-down economics" doesn't work so well. I still recall the 5 to 6000 employees got laid off with AT&T, yet the CEO received a significant increase that same F/Y. From my perspective, it seems the entire airline industry has been knocked off its feet. I suspect this current trend with airlines has a distance to go still and the face of that industry could look quite different a few years from now (mergers, folding, etc).

Randy King

Senior Captain, B737-800

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