Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler - Flight Planning, Local & Trans Oceanic

Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler | Airline Operations | Flight Planning, Local & Trans Oceanic

DVA2748
Captain, B767-300
OLP

Joined on December 16 2005
Century Club
Online Century Club
Everett Century Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary

New York, NY

183 legs, 243.6 hours
143 legs, 183.8 hours online
179 legs, 239.7 hours ACARS
2 legs, 4.2 hours event

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 13:01 ET by Jim Delois

Hey guys - I have a couple questions about the simplification of flight planning, etc.

Currently, when planning a domestic flight, I find myself having to use a combination of (Free) Route Finder for obtaining the overall picture of concise waypoints and jetways, DVA's Flight Planner for STAR / SID selection, and FSNav to do some fine tuning if need be.

Up until recently, Route Finder ( http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/ ) USED to include the proper SID and STAR right within the flight plan (now it just prints the text "SID" and "STAR"), so that was very-near my one-stop-shop.

I'm simply wondering what most people are using as flight planners out there?? I know that www.simroutes.com is a pretty excellent resource, but in the event that a route isn't in there, just out of curiousity, what does the average DVA user use?

I just find myself so bogged down with work surrounding the flight that sometimes I elect not to even fly if I only have an hour or hour and a half to do a quick leg: Gotta find the flight on DVA, get the most-concise route from Route Finder, use the DVA tool to select a proper SID or STAR (and if DVA doesn't have them, I have to go through them one-by-one on www.airnav.com until I find an appropriate one), bring up the proper maps and SIDs, type the plan fully into SB, then AGAIN into ACARS, and type in the route into FSNav (at least enough to get the flight well-underway), and then move to the airport and get the weather!

Again, SimRoutes does a pretty good job of minimizing the task of actually plotting - and Route Finder USED to where SimRoutes didn't have it. Any ideas? Also, any ideas on minimizing all the typing?

Additionally, I don't even know where to start for trans-oceanic flights!! Where can I even get routes and STARs for cities abroad? Or do most DVA users just rely on their FMS (FSNav, etc)?

Just prompting some discussion and hoping to get some tips in the process... Thanks!!

DVA1427
Senior Captain, MD-11
OLP

Joined on December 14 2003
Online Double Century Club
50 State Club
Tri-Jet Triumph
Globetrotter
Moose Club
US Capital Club
Everett 250 Club
Quincentenary Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary

"Livin' in the Dog Pound!"
Kannapolis, NC

558 legs, 1,984.3 hours
250 legs, 611.8 hours online
384 legs, 1,530.5 hours ACARS
38 legs, 82.7 hours event

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 13:25 ET by Lewis Gregory

For flight planning, I've got two things I use mainly: FSBuild 2 (payware) and the website www.flightaware.com.

Once I find a flight I want to do, I will go out on flightaware.com and pull up all the flightplans filed between those two cities. I'll pick one, and then feed it into FSBuild 2 and process it. FSBuild will take that flightplan, expand it, and create plans for several different software packages; in my case, I create an FS2004 plan, an FSNavigator plan, a Squawkbox 3 plan, a PMDG 738 plan, an LDS 767 plan, and an ACS-GPS (MD-11) plan. I could remove most of those, really, but I'm too lazy. smile

I will also print a navlog from FSBuild, that shows me estimated fuel usage as well as every single waypoint on the plan and the headings and distances between them. I use that navlog to check my flightplan as I enter it into the FMC (on FMC birds). If I use my 727 that I've installed the CIVA INS system in, I use the navlog to enter the latitude/longitude coordinates for each waypoint as the flight progresses.

Sometimes I have to modify the plans from Flightaware; for example, if they're using an RNAV arrival into Atlanta and I'm flying the 727 (I don't use RNAV departures or arrivals even with the INS). Then I have to dig around and find a suitable substitute non-RNAV SID or STAR. If I can't find a route at all on Flightaware, then I'll let FSBuild auto-generate a flightplan, which may or may not be a useful one. If that doesn't work, then I'll hit Routefinder or Simroutes and see what they come up with.

Lewis Gregory

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 16:45 ET by Jim Delois

Thanks for your input, Lewis. I've now checked out Flightaware and have bookmarked it... excellent resource!

Still looking to kill more birds with fewer stones, though...

DVA1909
Captain, B757-200

Joined on September 18 2004
Century Club

"Ang!"
Lakewood, CA

167 legs, 500.3 hours
3 legs, 5.8 hours online
104 legs, 337.5 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 16:48 ET by Colin Stave

I second Lewis's method (although I use FSNav, but it's the same basic idea). I don't get quite so detailed with printing out the flight and such (I use up enough ink on charts). I just copy down the flightplan and put it into FSNav when I load everything up. The only frustration with this is when a J-route or V-route has waypoints in between that aren't listed in the flight plan and you have to follow them and adjust the flight plan manually.

The page you want on flightaware is this one: http://flightaware.com/analysis/route.rvt I like this method for choosing routes because they are the most recently flown (or even currently flying) routes and most likely to match up with the weather. If you pick a specific one you can also find the "track log" which will give you a vertical profile of the flight for FL planning.

As Lewis pointed out, it's rare to see plans on flightaware into or out of ATL that aren't RNAV procedures. For these situations I just pick the ATL5 waypoint that's best for outbound or match the 4 RNAV STARs up against the corresponding regular STARs. They usually have the same entry points I believe. For example a flight plan with "BNA.ERLIN2" as the RNAV STAR I would change to "BNA.RMG2" which follows the same route.

Colin Stave (DVA1909)

DVA2937
Captain, B767-300

Joined on February 02 2006
Century Club

Northeastern United States

105 legs, 235.1 hours
90 legs, 201.4 hours online
11 legs, 22.5 hours ACARS
1 legs, 7.9 hours event

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 17:31 ET by Keith Read

I'll Third Lewis's method also. Except I use flightware.com and FS Nav. I also spent some time creating SIDs and STARs for the airports that I frequent or plan to frequent. Once I have created a flight I will save it plus I will export it to FS2004, 737PMDG and LDS767. I will then create a unique name/number for the flight where I log it into a database I created. So when I am ready to flight that route I will seach by airports and select the flight I need.

Keith Read (DVA2937)

DVA1855
Senior Captain, B777-200
OLP

Joined on August 28 2004
50 State Club
Everett 250 Club
Kangaroo Club
Online Century Club
Quatercentenary Club
DVA Fleet Master

"Life Begins @ Vmc Life Ends @ Vne+1"
Philadelphia, PA

436 legs, 1,824.8 hours
113 legs, 445.8 hours online
297 legs, 1,208.2 hours ACARS
9 legs, 47.9 hours event

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 19:10 ET by Andrew Rogers

i take the route from flight aware

Andrew Rogers (DVA1855)

DVA1966
Captain, B777-200

Joined on October 11 2004
Everett 250 Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary
Quatercentenary Club

Grafton, WI USA

408 legs, 1,927.0 hours
38 legs, 111.7 hours online
234 legs, 1,139.9 hours ACARS
1 legs, 1.0 hours event

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 19:14 ET by Thomas Bate

The Flightaware routes will not have trans atlantic routing for routes to the US from Europe

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 19:24 ET by Jim Delois

Anyone with insight on Trans-atlantic / oceanic routing? FSNav can do it, but it's not always pretty!

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 19:43 ET by Lewis Gregory

Yeah, Thomas mentions a point that I forgot. Flightaware only does domestic routing, or the North American portion of trans-Atlantic routing. I'm not sure where to come up with international flightplans aside from the usual suspects (routefinder or simroutes). FSBuild will build international routes and does a fair job, and will download and insert NAT tracks, but I think the NAT part of the package is really hard to use and I never quite seem to get it right. So I end up just getting the track and inserting the points manually.

I really do like FSBuild as a package. One downside is that, for whatever reason, they don't have AIRAC updates on navdata.at like most other payware packages (FSNav, LDS, PMDG, etc.); you have to go to the FSBuild website (www.fsbuild.com) to get them. And even then they aren't complete; for example, the latest update didn't have the full set of RNAV STARs into Atlanta.

Lewis Gregory

Senior Captain, MD-11

DVA043
Senior Captain, MD-11
OLP

Joined on June 10 2001
Event Half Century Club
Online Double Century Club
50 State Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary
Everett 1500 Club
Bi-Millennium Club
Four Million Mile Club

"Col. Panic"
Marietta, GA

2,347 legs, 9,466.0 hours
240 legs, 553.9 hours online
2,005 legs, 8,259.1 hours ACARS
75 legs, 196.3 hours event
2,383 legs, 9,600.9 hours total
91 legs dispatched, 66.4 hours

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 20:00 ET by Luke Kolin

Other other hint - ACARS should be able to load a flight plan from either SB3 or Flight Simulator. It might not load everything, but it'll definitely get you pretty darn close to the final thing, with only one or two fields left to set.

Cheers!

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

DVA2253
Senior Captain, DC-8-61
COMM

Joined on April 01 2005
Everett 250 Club
Online Century Club
Eight Century Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary

"I'd rather be flying!"
Church Hill, TN USA

862 legs, 1,344.5 hours
108 legs, 165.2 hours online
299 legs, 485.1 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 20:49 ET by George Lewis

Personally, I have real world high altitude enroute charts for the USA that I use, but you can find them on http://www.myairplane.com but using the real world charts helps. I have the major airport SIDS and STARS already printed out and alot more of them saved on the hard drive. I check the NACO site for the SID/STAR for the airports I plan on flying into and out of.

Then I do it myself - I figure out the SID, the STAR and the jet airway based upon the charts, then I do up a chart with the navigation aid (usually a VOR) with the course heading, distance, etc. I then get the total miles, get winds aloft and figure out my estimated groundspeed. That gives me my fuel planning, and also I take the alternate into account for this (as well as navigation to there from the arrival airport).

then I just jump in the B727 and go. If I'm flying the LDS 763 overseas or something, I'll simply program the FMC, which takes just a few quick minutes to do.

NAT flights - pretty simple too - go here: https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/trackmain.html

The long and skinny of NAT is this - daily they change the route and there are certain waypoints that are connected together to make a "track" and they call this the North Atlantic Track, or NAT. You simply choose which "track" you want to fly - generally speaking, pick one that is most convenient for you.

Then, you plan your flight just like any USA flight - you have a SID, say departing KATL on the ATL5.NOTWO, then you flight plan from the SID transition point to the NAT track's first waypoint. then you plan from the exit of the NAT track you have chosen, all the way to your destination airport's STAR transition point.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask!

George Lewis (DVA2253)

Posted onPost created on March 13 2006 20:56 ET by George Lewis

I should add that the website also has PACOT (pacific ocean tracks), but it's the same deal as the NAT system.

NACO has all your sids and stars - http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp
these are viewable in PDF form and are the real deal SIDS/STARS - NACO stands for National Aeronautical Charting Office - they are the guys who officially do the charts. All this stuff is of course free.

Sorry I can't be of any help using "one stop shopping" for flight planning - to me, flight planning is one of the joys of flying and I just can't click on a website and take for granted what they give me. I enjoy doing the flight planning, and being a real world pilot I would never rely on anything other than my own eyes looking stuff over.

George Lewis (DVA2253)

Posted onPost created on March 15 2006 18:02 ET by Thomas Bate

Is there a website that will give you the Real World Trans Atlantic Flight routes? Flight aware doesn't give the whole route on Trans Atlantic flights.

Posted onPost created on March 15 2006 18:58 ET by George Lewis

Yes - the link I mentioned lists the tracks daily.

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/trackmain.html

These ARE the atlantic flight routes smile

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