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DVA3672
Senior Captain, A320
OLP
E-MAIL

Joined on October 29 2006
B757 100 Club
50 State Club
Two Million Mile Club
Bi-Millennium Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
US Capital Club
Toulouse Millennium Club
Online Fifteen Century

"Chris, NOT in Seattle"
Northeastern United States

2,534 legs, 6,223.1 hours
1,537 legs, 3,252.2 hours online
2,243 legs, 5,407.0 hours ACARS
4 legs, 6.0 hours event
2 legs dispatched, 19.5 hours

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 10:43 ET by Chris Frasure

Good morning!

Let me first say that I am so glad to be a part of such a wonderful community and to have gotten to know many of you. I also appreciate all the efforts and hard work of each of the Chief P's and and Assis Chief P's. I also appreciate the resources available, the friendliness of the staff and all of the hard technical work put in via Luke et al. I have only one suggestion where I think things can be a bit frustrating. I am a bit concerned about the parody in the grading of the FO/Captain exams. While many of you know, some of the questions in each exam are the same as in other exams (which is great because it really solidifies things to remember) the grading and feedback can be very different! Some, "graders," will respond after an exam with a simple PASS/UNACCEPTABLE. Others will give you feeback on what you missed. Some answers for the same questions are accepted by some graders while they are marked wrong by others. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect with the various programs. If I as the student answer a question that is marked correctly in a certain exam but then is marked wrong on another exam, it tends to cause problems and confusion. I may have answered the question a certain way simply because I thought that it was a sufficient/correct answer...right for some while wrong for others. I see this as a big problem for those going up through the ranks. Has any thought gone into making the exams multiple choice so that they one, don't overburden the graders with exams and two to have some uniformity to the grading? I highly suggest looking into this.

Anyway, I thought that I would post this here to get an idea of how everyone feels. This is obviously not a flame so unless you have some intelligent input please don't use this as a soapbox.

Thanks guys/gals

CF

DVA1148
Senior Captain, B777-200
COMM

Joined on March 18 2003
Everett 250 Club
Online Quadruple Century Club
50 State Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary
Quincentenary Club

"Mongo only pawn...in game of life."
Daytona Beach, FL

508 legs, 1,533.6 hours
466 legs, 1,426.2 hours online
224 legs, 680.6 hours ACARS
31 legs, 84.5 hours event

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 11:31 ET by Ralph Snyder

CF,

It's being worked on. Believe me, the people that have to grade the exams are just as frustrated (frustrated is probably too strong a word). Try grading a 20 question essay/short answer test. Sometimes there's conflicting information provided in the answer. Part of it's right, part of it is wrong - someone may mark the answer as correct - someone else may mark it wrong.

Take advantage of the situation - that's right there's a bright side to this. In the confusion there's probably room for better understanding. As I mentioned above, part of your answer was probably correct - now inquire and find out what part was wrong. It's also a good lesson in education. In one situation an answer is correct, but when looked at differently, it's incorrect. Maybe not what you want to hear, but I find it happens more often then you'd expect.

-Ralph

Ralph Snyder

Senior Captain, B777-200

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 11:42 ET by Chris Frasure

Thanks Ralph. Yes, I understand. I grade 140 midterms and finals every quarter. All short answer.

CF

DVA043
Senior Captain, MD-11
OLP

Joined on June 10 2001
Event Half Century Club
Online Double Century Club
50 State Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary
Everett 1500 Club
Bi-Millennium Club
Four Million Mile Club

"Col. Panic"
Marietta, GA

2,347 legs, 9,466.0 hours
240 legs, 553.9 hours online
2,005 legs, 8,259.1 hours ACARS
75 legs, 196.3 hours event
2,383 legs, 9,600.9 hours total
91 legs dispatched, 66.4 hours

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 11:44 ET by Luke Kolin

Chris, hopefully George Lewis will chime in. I know he's been doing some work on improving and revamping the questions.

Cheers!

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

DVA3943
Senior Captain, B737-800

Joined on January 22 2007
Online Seven Century Club
Millennium Club

""Brakes released- cleared to push""
North Kingstown, RI USA

1,379 legs, 1,845.6 hours
1,277 legs, 1,632.7 hours online
1,266 legs, 1,659.7 hours ACARS
30 legs, 54.0 hours event
9 legs dispatched, 6.8 hours

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 12:26 ET by Trevor Woolley

I must agree with Christopher- in every thing that he said to the point.

The one comment, or idea for you to chew on is that of a Multiple Choice Test. If not for anything else, its easy to grade. There is one right answer and one only. Its either right or wrong.

Just an idea for you all!!

Trevor Woolley (DVA3943)

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 12:38 ET by Chris Frasure

I don't want any of you staffers to forget that I appreciate all your hard work and I am in no way complaining or whining. Just adding my 2 cents on how to possibly improve.

CF

DVA3310
Chief Pilot, A320

Joined on July 07 2006
50 State Club
White Knuckles Club
Million Mile Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
Globetrotter
Eurocap Club
Toulouse 500 Club
Flying Colonel

Littleton, CO

1,550 legs, 4,684.1 hours
34 legs, 60.9 hours online
1,511 legs, 4,555.5 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 13:41 ET by Axel Guillebastre

Both multiple choice test and written exams have their own assets and flaws... However the great thing about a written exam is that you have to make the effort to look for information (manuals, google, etc.) and write a full sentence with your own words. There is no better way to learn!

Axel Guillebastre (DVA3310)

DVA650
Senior Captain, B767-300
E-MAIL

Joined on June 28 2002
Online Double Century Club
Quatercentenary Club

"IRS NAV ONLY"
Lynchburg, VA USA

466 legs, 2,117.4 hours
301 legs, 1,436.8 hours online
163 legs, 781.4 hours ACARS
6 legs, 30.6 hours event

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 14:16 ET by Chuck Gehman

Multiple choice has been covered here before in detail and I for one am stongly in favor of going to that. I do not have a problem passing tests around here just that multiple choice would take the human factor out of the equation and we all know that is where mistakes happen.

A "test" should be sterile.

Chuck Gehman (DVA650)

DVA1892
Senior Captain, MD-11

Joined on September 13 2004
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
Eurocap Club
Online Triple Century Club
White Pearl Accomplishment
Quatercentenary Club
Everett Century Club

"Fly Douglas Jets!"
Buenos Aires AR

460 legs, 1,384.1 hours
336 legs, 1,086.5 hours online
271 legs, 726.6 hours ACARS
12 legs, 24.6 hours event

Posted onPost created on February 22 2007 15:02 ET by Gaston Doval

If you need feedback on anything there's always THE OPTION of emailing and asking for it. Many people don't have time to do it after they finish marking your exam.

Cheers!

Gaston Doval (DVA1892)

DVA1993
Senior Captain, L-1011-100

Joined on November 03 2004
Online Double Century Club
Six Century Club

Eastern Canada

729 legs, 1,163.8 hours
729 legs, 1,163.8 hours online
378 legs, 569.5 hours ACARS
1 legs, 1.9 hours event

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 08:01 ET by James Crichton

Christopher:
Well for one thing,the grader is not a mind reader.
Some answers given can be very lengthy in nature,to the point where there seems to be more than one answer to the same question.
Other answers can be incomplete,where as the grader must try and get inside the individuals head to see if he really does know .The same applys to a lengthy answer.
I always reply to each answer that is in question.
There are key words to each correct answer,that are not always used.IE incomplete answers.
I always say,keep to the point,I dont care about how many words a person can type in a min.LOL
I do agree a multiple choice test would be better.
Jim C. CP L1011

James Crichton (DVA1993)

DVA3419
Captain, MD-88

Joined on July 31 2006
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary

"Propellers keep you kewl!"
Newark, DE

67 legs, 89.6 hours
61 legs, 82.8 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 09:01 ET by Norm Hare

If the exams become multiple guess, I would suggest shortening the exam time or lengthening the exam to compensate. To be quite honest, I see people being promoted everyday and am not sure a change is required. If no one was passing, than I can see the point. It would make it easier on the graders to change, but as of yet, I have not heard any of them complain. I think a lot of this is driven by impatient pilots that have to have their score NOW. I do believe that if a pilot has an issue with the way a particular question was graded, it should go to an alternate "grader" and not the original.

Norm Hare (DVA3419)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 09:29 ET by Chris Frasure

Jim/Norm

It really isn't about passing or failing to me.My prblem is that when you answer a question that is marked correctly on one exam and then put it verbatum on the next exam, it is marked wrong. I have an issue with that. A test in itself is a learning experience. If you learn that an answer is acceptable, it should stay that way for all exams.

CF

DVA3303
First Officer, CRJ-200

Joined on July 03 2006

"Me? Havin motto? Silly :o)"
Eastern Europe

7 legs, 10.3 hours
7 legs, 10.3 hours online
6 legs, 9.1 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 16:18 ET by Peter Fabian

As of this, I am strongly against multiple choice (not that I have to have some word in here smile

), simply because of its lack of making sure pilot knows what are we talking about. Multiple choice tend to be more of disqualifing answers thing, and I dont like this. Tends for type of does like me-does not like me type of game children here use to play with flowers (tearing em of.. hope you know what I mean.

Just my 50hal.

Peter Fabian (DVA3303)

DVA3196
Senior Captain, MD-11
OLP, COMM

Joined on June 03 2006
Online Double Century Club
50 State Club
Six Century Club

"pitchpowertrim.com"
Anderson, MO

619 legs, 1,093.4 hours
292 legs, 503.1 hours online
580 legs, 1,026.5 hours ACARS
89 legs, 191.0 hours event
236 legs dispatched, 110.1 hours

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 16:56 ET by Michael Brown

This subject seems to come up every week rolleyes

I've taken many of DVA's current tests and they seem fine to me. Almost all the answers can be found in the document library. The others can be found with a little quick research on the internet. As for answers being marked wrong mistakenly, we're all human and stuff happens. A quick e-mail to the grader would resolve it.

just my two cents.

Michael Brown (DVA3196)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 17:15 ET by Trevor Woolley

The bottom line is that a written exam requires a human to grade it. Unless you have the same person grading every single test, then there are going to be differences.

Trevor Woolley (DVA3943)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 17:24 ET by Michael Brown

Everyone likes multiple choice questions. Truth be told about them is they are easier than fill-in-the-blank or hand written. Seems to me it is only a small minority of people here at DVA that actually want the tests changed.

Perhaps we should take a poll. I'd like to see what the statistics are here at DVA regarding this. In my opinion, majority should rule, if the majority wants tests re-done, then so be it.

Michael Brown (DVA3196)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 17:31 ET by Chuck Gehman

Easier to grade as well apparently.

Chuck Gehman (DVA650)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 17:33 ET by Michael Brown

I e-mailed the 'Bosses' regarding a poll like I suggested above. We-ll see if it happens, should be interesting.

Michael Brown (DVA3196)

DVA1583
Senior Captain, MD-11
OLP

Joined on March 23 2004
Everett 250 Club
Online Six Century Club
50 State Club
DVA Fifteen-Year Anniversary
Seven Century Club

South America

710 legs, 1,938.2 hours
619 legs, 1,760.2 hours online
589 legs, 1,630.3 hours ACARS
16 legs, 61.2 hours event

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 19:35 ET by Charly Azcue

I don't think multiple choice exams are easier.. all depends on the questions/answers options.. they can and will be trickier 'cause you will have to read AND re-read AND re-read the questions and the options.. so you will have to know about the matter.
Also for the 'tic-tac-toe' people I don't think only 2 answers will be available.. I think more like 3 or 4.. and you need a 84% score for Captain (4 wrong answers and you don't pass)
This system will bring zero confusion about the answers for the pilots and will be a lot more easier for the CPs/ACPs.

Regards

Charly Azcue (DVA1583)

DVA2370
Senior Captain, B737-800
OLP, COMM, VFRADV

Joined on May 26 2005
Online Triple Century Club
Commuter Conquest
Six Century Club
Stage 1 Prop Triple Century Club
50 State Club
US Coastal Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary

Flagler Beach, FL USA

675 legs, 726.8 hours
319 legs, 311.4 hours online
179 legs, 146.1 hours ACARS
1 legs, 1.6 hours event
0 legs dispatched, 4.0 hours

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 20:12 ET by Scott Clarke

We are working on revamping all of the tests for DVA into a multi choice answer test format, like the FAA tests you would take in the real world....
We hear you, there is only 26.5 hours in a day judge

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 21:03 ET by Chuck Gehman

Thanks guys, great work as always!

Chuck Gehman (DVA650)

DVA2301
Captain, B777-200
COMM

Joined on April 25 2005
Everett Century Club
Double Century Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary

Baltimore, MD USA

264 legs, 820.6 hours
90 legs, 221.0 hours online
234 legs, 757.3 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on February 23 2007 22:40 ET by Andrew Logan

From my grading stand point, it is the hardest thing to grade a question when I read it and think to myself... "thats right, thats right, thats wrong, thats wrong, where did that come from?" I do admit that some questions are up to the discretion of the grader and to be honest, I will grade it differently than another grader. Christopher, I am sure that you are aware of the supply type test questions. Unfortunately that is the system we work under. It requires the test taker to organize their thoughts and put them on to paper (or in our case a supply box). Sometimes that is difficult for people especially if they don't have a sound grasp of the knowledge in question. Add in the grader, and there is just that much more room for error. Now someone else has to make sense of what is written, and sometimes it is a challenge. Like I said before it becomes very difficult when parts are incorrect and others are correct.

If you ever have a problem with the way a test is graded. In the case where an answer for one program was correct, but incorrect for another. Talk to the grader about it. If someone were to come to me and explain why they said what they said, and they were able to give a correct answer, I would have no problem re-grading the test.

As for the multiple choice style test. I GUARENTEE this won't be an easy out. From what my sources say they are using the FAA as a model, and I can tell you from the FAA writtens I have taken, you will still be challenged. It is very hard to pick the BEST answer out of four choices, especially when they are all 'correct' answers. Anyone who has taken an FAA written will agree with me.

Sadly I think that this will always be an issue. Nothing is ever perfect, especially in the testing world. There is always room for improvement, and that is what we strive to do.

Andrew Logan

Captain, B777-200

Posted onPost created on February 25 2007 03:36 ET by James Crichton

Hi All.
One Last thing,I dont usually get caught up in these little hissy matches,nor shall i in the
Future.
I have had all types of tests in my past and still have to do several each yr. in the real world .and I am
retired.I take on at least one-two contracts each yr.if the work is out there at our local refinerys.
Point Being-"You should try to become a military pilot",if you think these tests have no continuity,you would lose marks
for lots of reasons,IE did not cross a T/dot an i/spelling ETC.there where many other ways to wash out as well.
If you answered a question incorrectly,you would not just lose that mark,but points as well for missing it.
Multiple Choice cards being corrected by a device called Scan Tron is common place here with in the Trades/Safety Depts.
And no I did not Walk 10 miles to school/Up Hill/3 Ft of snow in my Jammies.LOL
Over And OUT!
Jim C.

James Crichton (DVA1993)

Posted onPost created on February 25 2007 14:43 ET by Chris Frasure

please don't take any of my comments as complaining...so ther is no hissy from me as you say. i was just adding my observations. i have a masters in education so i might know a thing or two about tests. wink

I am not asking for perfection. I was just wondering were the disconnect was when one answer to one is fine and to another it is wrong. As i said im my opening remarks, i love this place and appreciate all of the hard work you do for us.

CF

DVA2253
Senior Captain, DC-8-61
COMM

Joined on April 01 2005
Everett 250 Club
Online Century Club
Eight Century Club
DVA Ten-Year Anniversary

"I'd rather be flying!"
Church Hill, TN USA

862 legs, 1,344.5 hours
108 legs, 165.2 hours online
299 legs, 485.1 hours ACARS

Posted onPost created on February 25 2007 20:10 ET by George Lewis

As others have mentioned, we're working on it Christopher. Our plan is to eventually make ALL questions multiple choice. It's going to take time to get it done, but the wheels are in motion and we're working on it now.

Not only are we going to convert the questions, we are going to revamp them completely and also develop a good study guide so you know WHERE to study and learn.

George Lewis (DVA2253)

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